Hello dear friends and readers, and welcome back to the read of The Shadow Rising. I’d like to thank you all so much for your patience during our unexpected hiatus from Reading the Wheel of Time! We could have used some of that Aes Sedai healing in the Sylas household these past few weeks, if Moiraine had cared to stop by.
For those who may not have heard, my darling counterpart and Tor.com’s own Emmet Asher-Perrin had to have emergency brain surgery. Fortunately the problem was fixable and Emmet is on the mend now, but my time and brain space has been very much taken up with that and not with Rand and his problems.
But now things are getting back to normal and it feels great to return to Randland, as I have recently learned that fandom calls it. Some of you were helpful enough to inform me that Chapters 24 and 25 definitely should be tackled together, so this week we’re just going to ease back into things with Chapter 23, which, like the past few weeks, is full of talking and setup. But it’s very interesting talking and set up, and I am very excited to finally meet the Wise Ones, who have been waiting for us, and our intrepid travelers, in Rhuidean.
Hurray, we finally made it to Rhuidean!
Chapter 23 opens with Rand having just activated the portal stone. The ground tilts under everyone’s feet, causing chaos amongst the pack mules. Egwene immediately recognizes the heat of the Waste from when she felt it in Tel’aran’rhiod. She catches sight of a sand-blasted stone column that must be the other Portal Stone. In the distance, despite the unrelenting heat of the sun and even in the stone beneath her boots, she can see a valley filled with roiling fog, the tops of towers and spires sticking out from it.
Mat expresses his astonishment that they’re alright, but Egwene catches sight of Rand on the ground and moves over to him as Lan helps him to his feet. Rand looks as pale as death, but he’s pleased that he did it. Just barely, as Moiraine points out, but he did it. Moiraine is angry at him for taking such a chance, but Rand argues that Mat is the one who takes chances, and in any case, it worked. Lan quietly agrees that this is all that matters.
But when Moiraine heals Rand, giving him at least enough strength back to stand up on his own, Rand pulls away and roughly tells her to ask first. Egwene is surprised when Lan doesn’t tell Rand off for speaking to Moiraine in such a way.
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They then notice that the Aiel have gone completely still, and are staring away from the fog valley towards two nearby camps. They seem tense, but then a woman’s voice from higher up calls out the words “The peace of Rhuidean,” and they seem to relax again, lowering their veils.
Four women descend the slope down to meet them, and Egwene recognizes Amys among them. The eldest of them spreads her arms and commands the peace of Rhuidean upon all who come to Chaendaer, and the Aiel begin to disperse, breaking up into clans and taking their pack mules and spoils of battle with them. One of the Wise Ones stops Aviendha from leaving; Egwene wants to go to her, but Moiraine advises against it. Aviendha does look like she would prefer to be left alone, but Egwene herself would have liked to be standing closer to her friend. The Aiel in the encampments are all watching, and they do not look friendly. She feels exposed and vulnerable under those eyes and the blistering heat, but resolves to accept the situation as long as Moiraine and Lan appear calm.
Rhuarc climbs up the slope to meet Amys, who tells him she knew that he would be back today, and Egwene realizes that this is what Moiraine meant about Dreaming. Moiraine admits that the Wise Ones wrote in their letter that they would all meet on Chaendaer today, and that once she saw Rand’s determination to take the Portal Stone, she began to believe it.
A man comes out of each of the camps, and Rhuarc addresses one of them, Heirn. Although Moiraine and Egwene do not understand the conversation, Lan leans down to translate.
A Wise One can go anywhere safely, into any hold regardless of clan. I think not even blood feud touches a Wise One. This Heirn came to protect Rhuarc from whoever the other camp is, but it would not be honorable to say it.” Moiraine lifted one eyebrow a trifle, and he added, “I don’t know much of them, but I fought them often before I met you. You have never asked me about them.”
“I will remedy that,” the Aes Sedai said dryly.
Lan takes time to give both women something to drink, pours more water over their heads, and gives instructions for the two, as well as Rand and Mat, to tie wet scarves over their foreheads. He cautions that the heat can kill if you are not used to it.
Rhuarc and The Wise Ones have a conversation with a man named Couladin, whose leader is currently in Rhuidean, and who intends to try himself if his leader does not return The Wise Ones tell him that it is only his right to ask to go, and that they decide whether or not to say yes. He is angry, but they tell him that he probably won’t be allowed to go even if he does ask, since he is “flawed within.” Egwene is surprised at the man’s display of anger, and reminded of the Congars and Coplins back home. She resolves to keep an eye out for him.
Amys then turns her attention to Rand, who steps up to her and makes a strange bow.
“By the right of blood,” he said, “I ask leave to enter Rhuidean, for the honor of our ancestors and the memory of what was.”
Amys blinked in evident surprise, and Bair murmured, “An ancient form, but the question has been asked. I answer yes.”
“I also answer yes, Bair,” Amys said. “Seana?”
Couladin breaks in, insisting that Rand is no Aiel and that it is death for him to stand where he is. He demands to know why Rhuarc has brought him, but Bair cuts him off, telling him to be silent when a Wise One speaks. Rand, sounding strained, tells them that his mother was an Aiel, but Amys corrects him, telling him that it was his father. Seana and the fourth Wise One, Melaine, also answer yes, although with some reluctance.
Amys turns back to Rand and begins to speak to him when Mat scrambles up beside him, copying Rand’s bow and asking permission to enter as well. Egwene is shocked, Rand visibly too, but Couladin moves at once, stabbing a spear at Mat’s chest. Egwene sees the glow of saidar surround Amys and Melaine as they throw the man backwards with flows of air. Then she realizes what she should have known all along, that at least two of the Wise Ones can channel. This is why Amys’s features, smooth and close to Aes Sedai agelessness, had confused her so much. Still, she can tell Moiraine is just as surprised as Egwene herself is.
Melaine sends the man away, and Heirn and Rhuarc as well. After a moment, Amys tells Mat that he is not permitted, that he doesn’t understand what he has done, and that he must go back to the group. But Mat is insistent, saying that he’s come all this way already but that it doesn’t count, and that he has to go to Rhuidean. Rand even suggests that he can take Mat with him, that his permission should extend to anyone he chooses to invite along. But Melaine repeats that the law is clear; no woman can to to Rhuidean more than twice, no man more than once, and none who do not have Aiel blood in their veins.
Seana shook her head. “Much is changing, Melaine. The old ways…”
“If he is the one,” Bair said, “the Time of Change is upon us. Aes Sedai stand on Chaendaer, and Aan’allein with his shifting cloak. Can we hold to the old ways still? Knowing how much is to change?”
Amys says that they cannot hold against the change, and after a moment Melaine agrees. Amys asks for their names. She then tells Rand that he must go to the very center of Rhuidean, and that Mat may go with him if he wishes. But she warns that most men who enter Rhuidean’s heart do not come back, and some return mad. She also adds that they cannot carry food or water, “in remembrance of our wanderings after the Breaking” and must go unarmed “to honor the Jenn.”
They have the boys divest themselves of their weapons and leave them on the ground. The Wise Ones recite formally how they are pledged to Rhuidean, which belongs to the dead, and that the dead do not speak to the living. They cover themselves with their shawls and stand with their faces hidden, waiting. Eventually Rand and Mat get the hint, and with a reassuring smile from Rand and a few quips from Mat, they turn and start down towards the valley.
Eventually, when Rand and Mat are only small shapes in the distance, the Wise Ones lower their shawls. Egwene goes up to try to speak to Amys, but is cut off as Amys addresses Lan, telling him that this is woman’s business now, and to go off with Rhuarc. At Moiraine’s nod, Lan departs.
Moiraine asks about the name the Wise Ones have been using for Lan, Aan’allein, which means One Man, and they explain that they know of him, the last of the Malkieri, the man “who will not give up his war against the Shadow, though his nation is long destroyed by it.” They see much honor in Lan, and mention that they knew that he would probably come with the group, although they did not know that he obeyed Moiraine.
Moiraine explains that he is her Warder, but Egwene is mostly struck by the fact that the Wise Ones had not seen Lan’s coming with them as an absolute certainty, and had not seen their coming as an absolutely certainty, either. She wonders if interpreting isn’t as easy as she had hoped, but she doesn’t get the chance to ask because Aviendha is up next.
Although Aviendha declares that she is a Maiden of the Spear and does not want to be a Wise one, Amys tells her that she has already been treated gently. When Amys refused to give up her spear, she explains, her spear sisters broke it before her eyes and brought her to Coedelin themselves, naked and bound. Bair reminisces how Amys often tried to run away, and Amys agrees that she was not as tough as she had believed herself to be. But she learned her duty in time, and tells Aviendha that women like them have an obligation to the people.
Egwene realizes that Aviendha has the spark, too, realizes that she has always felt that in her connection with Aviendha. Realizing that Moiraine must know too, Egwene is surprised to find that, for the first time, she can sense the ability in Moiraine as well.
The Wise Ones observe that Moiraine wanted to take Aviendha to the White Tower, and remind her that Aviendha is Aiel. Moiraine retorts that Aviendha is very strong with the One Power, and could reach that potential in the White Tower. But the Wise Ones counter that they will train her, and better than in White Tower, where they coddle their women. Egwene is alarmed for Aviendha’s future experience, if life in the Tower is considered coddling by the Wise Ones
They make Aviendha give them her weapons and clothes, tossing each item away like trash—causing Aviendha to flinch each time—and saying that she must come to see the things as trash. She will burn them if she returns, giving up the metal from her weapons to make simple tools or toys for children. Even her clothes have to go; Aviendha is to be sent naked into Rhuidean.
“In Rhuidean,” Amys said, “you will find three rings, arranged so.” She drew three lines in the air, joining together in the middle. “Step through any one. You will see your future laid before you, again and again, in variation. They will not guide you wholly, as is best, for they will fade together as do stories heard long ago, yet you will remember enough to know some things that must be, for you, despised as they may be, and some that must not, cherished hopes that they are. This is the beginning of being called wise. Some women never return from the rings; perhaps they could not face the future. Some who survive the rings do not survive their second trip to Rhuidean, to the heart. You are not giving up a hard and dangerous life for a softer, but for a harder and more dangerous.”
Egwene realizes that Amys is describing a ter’angreal. She is even more surprised by that than when Melaine gives Aviendha a few words of encouragement, telling her that a strong mind and heart are her weapons now, and telling her that she has the strength to make it through.
With a bit of a quip about outrunning the men, Aviendha gives Egwene’s hand a squeeze and sets off towards the misty city. Egwene thinks that what Aviendha is about to do must be like being raised to Accepted without having any Novice training first. She thinks of how Nynaeve’s experience seems to be at least partly responsible for her dislike of the Aes Sedai. She looks after Aviendha, thinking of the words she was told when she went through the ter’angreal in the White Tower. “Come back to us. Be steadfast.”
Amys remarks that they have been hasty, because of how long Aviendha has put off coming to them, and because they feared some of the Aiel, like the Shaido, might don veils if things didn’t happen quickly, before they had time to think. Rand is one of them, and possibly He Who Comes With the Dawn, but they also sent Mat into Rhuidean, and allowed other outsiders to stay. Now that the boys and Aviendha are taken care of, they offer Moiraine and Egwene shelter and refreshment.
They are brought to a shady tent, furnished with cushions and layered carpets. They exchange a formal greeting over water, after which the Wise Ones seem to relax. Moiraine asks about the Aiel in white robes and hoods who are serving them, and is given a pared down explanation of the gai’shain, those who are taken prisoner in battle by being touched by their opponent while armed. Moiraine and Egwene don’t really understand the explanation, except that it has to do with the Aiel sense of honor, and that those taken gai’shain seem to take the honor as seriously as those whom they are required to serve, for a year and a day. They also learn that certain people—blacksmiths, Wise Ones, children, pregnant women or those with a child younger than ten—cannot be taken this way, and that there is a cultural understanding that what happens while gai’shain does not affect the honor of either the captor nor the gai’shain, and that honor and status returns to normal after the year and a day has elapsed.
They move on to the subject of dreamwalking, as Moiraine inquires how certain they had been of what they wrote in their letter to her.
Amys sighed and set aside her cup of wine, but it was Bair who spoke. “Much is uncertain, even to a dreamwalker. Amys and Melaine are the best of us, and even they do not see all that is, or all that can be.”
“The present is much clearer than the future even in Tel’aran’rhiod,” the sun-haired Wise One said. “What is happening or beginning is more easily seen than what will happen, or may. We did not see Egwene or Mat Cauthon at all. It was no more than an even chance that the young man who calls himself Rand al’Thor would come. If he did not, it was certain that he would die, and the Aiel too. Yet he has come, and if he survives Rhuidean, some of the Aiel at least will survive. This we know. If you had not come, he would have died. If Aan’allein had not come, you would have died. If you do not go through the rings—” She cut off as if she had bitten her tongue.
Egwene is shocked and curious at the suggestion that Moiraine must enter Rhuidean, but Seana picks up the explanation, to cover the apparent slip, explaining that the future is not set, and that in Tel’aran’rhiod it is possible to see some of the ways the future might be woven, but not all, and not for certain.
Moiraine remarks that the Old Tongue can be difficult to translate and goes off on an apparent tangent about the ways of interpreting the meaning of Tel’aran’rhiod, of aan’allein, the word the Wise One used for Lan, and others. She mentions that the translation of Aiel means “dedicated” but that it implies something stronger than that, an “oath written into your bones.” She has often wondered what the Aiel are dedicated to, and observes, too, that Jenn Aiel might translate to “the only true dedicated.”
Egwene observes the stony looks that the Wise Ones are giving Moiraine and tries to change the subject to dreaming, but Amys tells her she must wait until the sun begins to set. Meanwhile, Moiraine begins to undress, as she assumes she must go as Aviendha did. Seana says that she should not have been told, but that it is too late now. Each time they saw this fate for Moiraine, it was she who demanded to go, but already things are different from anything they saw. They refuse to tell Moiraine more, or what they saw if she does not go, and say that knowing too much of the future brings disaster.
“It is the mercy of the rings that the memories fade,” Amys said. “A woman knows some things—a few—that will happen; others she will not recognize until the decision is upon her, if then. Life is uncertainty and struggle, choice and change; one who knew how her life was woven into the Pattern as well as she knew how a thread was laid into a carpet would have the life of an animal. If she did not go mad. Humankind is made for uncertainty, struggle, choice and change.”
Before she goes, Moiraine tells them not to let Lan follow her, to which Bair replies that it will be as it will be. Moraine sets off, and Egwene asks if Moiraine will survive. There are some places, they tell her, that are shielded from a dreamwalker’s eyes. The Ogier steddings are one such place. Rhuidean is another.
Egwene reluctantly asks if she should go as well, but they tell her no. They have not seen that for her, or even seen her at all, and would not give permission if she were to ask. Egwene presses them to begin teaching her instead, and they agree, with Amys instructing Egwene that she must forget that she is Aes Sedai and must listen and obey them, not even entering Tel’aran’rhiod again until she has permission. Egwene, since she is only pretending that she is a full Aes Sedai, imagines she must be able to do so, and agrees.
Bair tells her that she must listen and repeat what she is told, and if she fails to remember everything, she’ll be set to scrubbing pots. There’s an implication that a second failure will result in worse punishment, as well.
They begin explaining, and Egwene listens intently, fascinated, but also a little resentful that she is the only one of the party who might be punished with hard labor. It doesn’t seem fair. On the other hand, however, she is certain she can learn as much from these women as any of them can find in Tel’aran’rhiod.
Oof! This is one of those weeks where I feel like I’m writing way too much in the recap section, but everything that comes up here feels like it’s very important, or will be at some point later in the story. Jordan really knew how to pack a lot into a single chapter, didn’t he?
What I’m most excited about in this chapter is that someone in-universe has finally made some definitive comments about how destiny works in The Wheel of Time. Several times in the course of this read, I’ve expressed questions about the nature of fate vs. free will in this universe, and whether or not people are actually choosing their own destiny or merely being woven along by the Wheel. Some of the characters, Rand and Perrin mostly, have also asked similar questions, while Moiraine has offered certain explanations: She’s outlined the purpose of ta’veren, for example, and she has illustrated her understanding of how the Pattern will accommodate small changes people might want to make, but not big ones. In The Eye of the World, she let us know that it might be possible for the Dark One to get free enough to touch and influence the Pattern and how it is being woven. Also, more personally, she has sometimes expressed almost contradictory opinions on how much the Pattern is responsible for one’s fate. She’s clearly of the belief that Rand’s fate isn’t set in stone, since she believes she should be able to direct his choices and is frustrated when she cannot. At the same time, however, she is fond of that phrase “the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills,” which shows, at least in theory, an understanding that much of the future and fate is directed, rather than chosen.
Now, however, we have Amys putting the idea of the future and its possibilities in slightly different terms, as she explains a dreamwalker’s relationship to Tel’aran’rhiod and understanding the present and future from what one sees there. Amys specifically states that there was only a slim chance that Rand would come to Rhuidean, that Lan was only probably going to accompany them. I think the use of the word “chance” here is meant to reflect more than the fact that reading the future is difficult. The results were not predestined.
The way the Wise Ones talk about the future and reading the Pattern uses a sort of “if, then” formula. If Rand survives Rhuidean, then at least some of the Aiel will survive. If Moiraine had not come, then Rand would have died. We see that the Pattern is being woven as events unfold, rather than being preset from beginning to end. When one strand falls into place, it shapes the others around it. When a single thread is pulled, the others attached to it ripple and rearrange.
Egwene observes here that it is difficult for Moiraine to submit to the authority of the Wise Ones, even just enough to be lectured by them. Indeed, it’s even hard for Egwene, who is still an Accepted, despite the subterfuge she’s been using about being Green Ajah. (I wonder if Moiraine would be at least a little less annoyed if Egwene had chosen to tell people she was Blue Ajah.) As the events of the Dragon’s return unfold, more and more things are outside Moiraine’s knowledge and control, as I observed in the last post when she reluctantly agreed to trust Rand’s decision making, at least for the time being.
But it’s not just Rand. We are now encountering societies who train their channelers away from the White Tower, first with the revelation about the Sea Folk Windfinders, and now as we learn that some Wise Ones are channelers. It really surprised me that Moiraine hadn’t figured that part out. It’s implied that she has a suspicion about the Sea Folk, and they even send some of their weaker channelers to the White Tower to keep the Aes Sedai off their scent. There are no Aiel in Tar Valon—do the Aes Sedai assume there are no women born with the spark in all of the Waste? Moiraine may have known or guessed that dreamwalking is not a skill driven by the One Power (a revelation to me) but even so, I would have thought she would have suspected more once she received that letter. She knew Aviendha had the spark, and must have wondered if any other Aiel did, and what happened to Aiel women who would eventually touch saidar whether they meant to or not.
I was also struck by Rand’s reaction to Moiraine healing him after his use of the Portal Stone. Not that he was upset by it—he’s had that reaction before—but his command to her to ask first is an important acknowledgement of the fact that Aes Sedai have no concept of consent. They are accustomed to knowing more, and having more power and authority, than those around them. They expect to be obeyed without question, to always be in power, and to always be right. When they are not acknowledged as such it is because of fear and superstition, which in its turn only enforces the idea that only the foolish or evil would reject their authority.
We see this even within their own ranks, in the way that novices and Accepted are treated, and in some of the military-escue hierarchies of the White Tower. Even Egwene and Nynaeve have begun to express very Aes Sedai opinions on such matters—here, when Rand protests, Egwene thinks of him as being childish and ungrateful. She has had her own experience having her autonomy and self-determination removed, and although the occasional laying of Aes Sedai hands is hardly comparable to the slavery of the a’dam, there is a connection: Having one’s body manipulated without consent is still a violation, even if that manipulation is meant to help and heal.
Egwene was surprised when Lan didn’t tell Rand off for the way that he spoke to Moiraine, but I wasn’t. Lan, of all people, is in a perfect position to understand Rand’s feelings on this matter, as he himself bumps up against the limitations of his own ability to consent to Aes Sedai control. Lan chose to be Moiraine’s Warder, of course, and knew the conditions into which he was entering, but it’s also significant, I think, that while an Aes Sedai could choose to alter or abolish the terms of the Warder/Aes Sedai bond, a Warder cannot, even should he come to change his mind down the road. And so it cannot be true consent, because it cannot be revoked once given.
It sounds like Moiraine has never used her bond to force Lan to do anything before, given their conversation about it in Chapter 22 of The Great Hunt. And he has always chosen, of his own free will, to obey her. She even leaves him enough room that he could manage to defy her, as we see when he offers to go with Nynaeve to Tanchico, and when Moiraine asks the Wise Ones not to let him follow her. Still, the fact remains that she has the ability to compel obedience, that she has actually arranged to compel him in the eventuality of her death. These issues have begun to chafe for Lan. The leash, as Moiraine calls it, has begun to chafe.
And lest we give Moiraine too much credit for her ultimate intention of having Lan be passed on to Nynaeve, let us remember that she could have told Lan about her plan. The fact that she doesn’t, the fact that she deliberate prods at him, testing his reaction and resolve, hurting him on purpose, shows that she believes in this supreme authority she has. She doesn’t feel she owes Lan an explanation, and she would see his obedience ensured without offering any justification to him, any softening of the blow. He is her Warder, his will ultimately belongs to her, even if he wishes it didn’t.
But then, perhaps that is the point. Perhaps it bothers Moiraine more because she wishes she could have the undying loyalty that came without a bond. She admits to herself that she is jealous of Nynaeve; Moiraine isn’t in love with Lan but he has been her confidant and her protector for a long time. This is a bond as strong as the one she has with him through the One Power, and perhaps she resents the changes that Nynaeve has wrought between them. She will use the tools she has left, the bond she has left, as the undying loyalty that he gave willingly begins to erode away.
And how, then, could Lan not empathize with Rand, who Moiraine believes she must lead and control? Sure, she’s only attempting it because the fate of the world hangs in the balance, but Lan is aware that such motivations might not make Rand’s leash chafe any less. Lan can understand that, since he believes in what Moiraine is doing much more than Rand does, but even that is no longer enough to compel him to accept everything without question.
Some of my lasting confusion about Rand’s parentage has also been cleared up this week by comments from the Wise Ones, who have definitively clarified that it was Rand’s father, not his mother, who was Aiel. My earlier deduced theory, that Tigraine, former heir to the throne of Caemlyn, is Rand’s mother seems to be correct. What confused me is the physical descriptions of the Aiel and of Rand’s resemblance to them. They have light eyes and hair, and several of the Aiel have been described as having red-gold hair, but then, so does Elayne. I confused the idea that Rand looks like an Aiel but also like his mother, and the fact that Tigraine and Elayne are familiarly related further confused me about which traits were hereditary, although of course I realize that there is no blood relation between the two.
There was also the peace that existed between Cairhien and the Aiel prior to the cutting down of the chora tree and the resulting Aiel War, which seems to have been an unprecedented relationship for the Aiel to have with another nation. I had assumed there was some blood kinship with the ruling family of Cairhien that engendered such closeness, but it seems now that this is not the case. The true reason for it, for now, remains unclear to me.
I’ve also finally put together some thoughts on the fact that the Old Tongue, or remnants of it at least, exists everywhere in The Wheel of Time, even amongst the Seanchan. I don’t know why, but I was kind of thinking of it as the language of the old Aes Sedai, specifically, but obviously it belonged to more than them. The prevalence of Old Tongue words in every society seems to suggest that the language was once spoken by everyone, prior to the Breaking—a universal tongue, or at least one that was so widespread as to have an influence in all parts of the world.
I wonder if this was due to Artur Hawkwing’s conquering of nearly all the world. Or, perhaps, the level of technology and One Power-driven development was such that the lands became deeply interconnected, facilitating the need for, and development of, a common tongue. I find that really interesting, and it also makes me wonder what tongue is being spoken now. I don’t remember there being mention of a “common tongue” or something similar, but I may have missed it early on. And we have yet to encounter a people who didn’t speak a language that the Two Rivers folk could understand.
Jordan is also continuing here with this theme of painful, harsh military training in the development of channelers. Not all Wise Ones have the ability to channel, of course, but as we see with Aviendha, those born with the spark are compelled to the life, even more than they are in the White Tower, where women are only forced to stay until they are trained enough to not be a danger to themselves or others. (Not that I imagine they would let a promising woman go easily, if it came right down to it.) And the Wise Ones call life in the White Tower soft, to boot.
However, this chapter acknowledges the problems with this way of thinking more than the narrative has so far. Egwene is aware that some of Nynaeve’s hostility toward the Aes Sedai was born from her experience in the three-arched ter’angreal. This matches with what I have previously observed: Certain aspects of Aes Sedai training might create rifts between women in the Tower that adversely affect their working relationships when they become full-fledged Aes Sedai. Of course, Nynaeve could have chosen to spend time as a novice, but the harsh, even demeaning treatment that came with that rank was something that would have embittered her to the Aes Sedai just as much, I think. And Nynaeve is aware of the means that were used against her, to force that choice.
However much Amys and the others insist that Aviendha must view her former possessions, her former life, as trash, I remember a few chapters back when we found Amys taking time in Tel’aran’rhiod to play at being a Maiden again. I don’t think she would do that if she truly saw that time of her life in such a negative light.
What, then, is the purpose of this injunction? Aviendha could be taught to move beyond her attachment to her former life and possessions in a number of ways, and there is a pragmatism in the Aiel way of life that would fit well with, for example, a Buddhist approach. The concept of non-attachment in Buddhism does not pass judgment on things, it simply teaches one to let go of them, because things—objects, possessions, people, even thoughts—actually can’t be held on to, and there is only suffering to be found in trying. So it is for Aviendha, whose attachment to being a Maiden (she says it is all she wants, all she has ever wanted) causes her great pain because she will not or cannot be allowed to remain one.
Do all Wise Ones have disdain for professions not their own, or for the lives they lived before? That hardly seems likely. I’m just not sure what lesson there is in Aviendha being compelled to this line of thought, other than the suggestion that suffering makes one stronger. The Aiel are big on strength and the fact that they are forged in hardship, but this just seems a pointless addition. Also, it would make more sense to me from a storytelling perspective to differentiate the Wise Ones from the Aes Sedai in more dramatic ways than that they’re harsher or tougher or whatever.
Granted, there may be plot reasons for this similarity in approach that hasn’t been revealed yet. There is still a lot of mystery to the Aiel, but it’s become clear that they have an important connection to events that seems to reach back to who they were before the Breaking. I think that this is the trail that Moiraine is on when she interrogates the meaning of Aiel as “dedicated” and Jenn Aiel as “true dedicated.”
Speaking of Moiraine and Aviendha: I’m sorry but why do the women have to go naked and not the men? I mean I know it’s because the men don’t have to go through a ter’angreal while in Rhuidean, but like… the women could have taken their clothes off once they got down there? And from a storytelling standpoint, why arrange things this way at all? Or why not say that people have to be naked to go through the redstone doorway? Or into Tel’aran’rhiod? It just seems very convenient that these particular ter’angreal, used exclusively by the main women in the story, require nudity.
I mean, the descriptions of Aviendha and Moiraine aren’t gratuitous or anything, but it still feels weird. I guess there’s an implied suggestion here that we’re being shown the stoicism of how Moiraine and Aviendha handle their enforced nudity? But again, when this test is applied only to women, it feels deliberate as a storytelling choice, and I don’t love it.
But that’s a small criticism, really, and it doesn’t make me less excited for next week. My plan for next week is to cover Chapters 24-26, covering just the part that Mat experiences; so everything from Chapter 24 and then the end of Chapter 26. The following week I’ll go back and cover Rand’s side of things and his adventures into the Aiel’s true history… and his own. There is so much to cover here my friends, and while I guessed a few things from the context clues we were given, I have to say, this all broke my brain a little.
So join us next week as we journey with Mat and Rand into that mysterious mist.
Mist-erious, if you will.
And in the meantime, y’all can check out the Doctor Who recaps if you’re interested, as I’ll be helping out with those for the next month or so! Emmet and I are doing it together in a sort of chat style, and I think we’re pretty cute. Not to mention nerdy.
Sylas K Barrett gets it. Moiraine just wants Nynaeve to get dunked in a pond.
Ah, Sylas has finally touched upon the one-sided nudity in the series. That’s a debate that’s been raging for many, many years.
You’re about to find out!
In a re-read series replete with excellent recaps and commentary, this week is a high point. Thank you.
Quick edit: I believe the “heat of the Blight” should be Waste.
So much to pick from this chapter, and of course the next two. So much fun when first reading. Yeah, the nudity thing is… what it is. Each case seems to have a justification, but in aggregate it’s weird. For example, here, Aviendha removes the clothes along with her other possessions, implying to me that it is reinforcing leaving the old life behind, and that’s the main thrust. Further, there is a theme in Randland that men are weak and complain and women are tough, which running through the desert naked and the whole, “I’ll beat the men there” both reinforce. There are similar reasons given for the other occasions so that each could be explained, but it is a definite pattern in the series.
Also, and more importantly, all the best to your counterpart!!
@@.-@ Agreed! And glad you’re back Sylas!
Happy to hear the positive news Sylas!
Regarding the future chapters, Sylas said that 24 and 25 should be together, but it is 25 and 26 (“Road to the Spear” and “The Dedicated”) if the mods could pass that along. I’m sure another 1 chapter next week would be fine as long as 25/26 are together.
Welcome back, Silas. We missed you and your amazing commentary. Hope all in your family are quick to recover from what must have been a really scary and traumatic time.
Welcome back! I’m glad everything worked out for you! =)
That aside:
Sylas K Barrett gets it. Moiraine just wants Nyneave to get dunked in a pond.
If Moiraine really wants someone dunked in a pond, that person will know it…
With the new dune movie being made, maybe I’m seeing dune in too many things, but doesn’t
” It is the mercy of the rings that the memories fade,” Amys said. “A woman knows some things—a few—that will happen; others she will not recognize until the decision is upon her, if then. Life is uncertainty and struggle, choice and change; one who knew how her life was woven into the Pattern as well as she knew how a thread was laid into a carpet would have the life of an animal. If she did not go mad. Humankind is made for uncertainty, struggle, choice and change.”
kinda sum up leto’s golden path pretty well?
Regarding the nudity, I understand Jordan’s reasoning regarding both ceremonies, but only one of them holds up to any scrutiny.
The reasoning behind the Tower Testing is stated in the words of the ceremony itself—no one with an XY pairing is allowed to take the testing, and checking beneath people’s small clothes is the best way to determine that in a non-scientific community. Also, humiliation is baked in to most initiation rites throughout history.
With the Aiel, it’s less straightforward. If I remember correctly, the Wise One Apprentices don’t get naked when they go through the Way Way Back Machine and become Wise Ones. So its’ the same as the men becoming Clan Chiefs. The men’s ritual to become Clan Chief doesn’t involve giving up an old way of life—it’s a continuation of the path they’ve been on their entire lives.
As far as the reasoning behind being naked for the first ceremony? The logic is not hard to follow: They can’t take anything from their old life in with them during the testing. They need to life the old life behind. If we accept that premise, then we can see why they can’t wear the clothes of their old profession. At the same time, they are not yet Wise Ones, or Apprentices, so they can’t wear the robes of either. So, naked.
It’s also important to remember the Aiel don’t have any nudity taboo. The point here (at least from the Aiel Wise Ones) isn’t the humiliation of nudity, but the humiliation of stripping the prospective apprentice of the things she values.
Still, they could just as easily do some sort of ceremonial washing, then give them robes specifically designed for the Testing. So could the Aes Sedai, of course. It boils down to psychological manipulation, just like all Cults with initiation rites in our own history. And that’s ultimately what the Wise Ones and the Aes Sedai are—Cults.
@9:
Dune is a known and acknowledged influence over the Aiel, so it’s not surprising there are resonances like the one you point out.
Couple comments here:
On the nudity – some of the Aes Sedai scenes in which nudity is required are a result of the unique situation of channelers in Randland. Both men and women can do it, but men are uniquely going to go mad, and thus there is a constant ritualistic re-affirmation that yes, all the people present and channeling are in fact biologically women. It’s never explicitly called out as such, but the fact that the only “faction” to which only women can belong, to the explicit exclusion of men, is sanctioned magic-users, strongly suggests it. Moreover, female channelers are the only ones who are required to be naked, and they only are required to be so in ritual settings.
Also, I think Sylas is misidentifying the reasons for Nynaeve’s hostility towards the Aes Sedai. Or rather, not understanding that Egwene herself is biased. All Egwene wants to do is be the very best Aes Sedai, a model student and all that. She can’t conceive that anyone might feel otherwise, even as she intellectually knows it to be true. The only way it seems she can emotionally reconcile that her close friend/mentor figure might not want the life she does is by assuming that Nynaeve was put off by the objectively shitty parts of Aes Sedai training, instead of understanding that Nynaeve’s attitude is based in her own insecurities and personal issues.
And finally, Moiraine isn’t shocked to find that there are women who can channel in the Waste. It’s assumed that they will pop up everywhere. But it was mentioned in tEoTW, I think, that women with the spark often don’t survive without training. My headcanon had always been that the White Tower knows that some few Aiel can channel, but most die young and the rest are scattered randomly as local healers, much as Nynaeve was (with the implication that there must be other Randland towns with an exceptionally “skilled” local Wisdom). I think it’s more of a “those ignorant barbarians” situation, where what is shocking is the not only the level of cultural complexity being encountered, but that if there is a similar organization to the Aes Sedai in the Wise Ones, it may mean that there are not only women with the spark, but large numbers of women being trained who have the aptitude but not the spark as well. Which means the White Tower hasn’t been ignoring a handful of women scattered across an inhospitable wasteland, but a number and organization of magic-users to rival their own.
@9 Dune is credited as being an influence on Robert Jordan but he is quoted as to saying that they did not influence his writing of the WoT. Any similarities are unintentional.
I’ve always wondered if the ritual rule of going naked through the 3-doored ter’angreal was influenced by forgotten trials where clothed Aes Sedai died while going through the arches clothed. They didn’t tie it to the fact that other ter’angreal disrupt the process (i.e. Egwene’s accepted trial) and came to the wrong conclusion that any clothing disrupts the process. Over time this rule became a ritual with the reasoning forgotten.
Oh, RJ is good at creating “reasons” why women are naked all of the time. My favorite is the really weird sister bonding thing that Aviendha and Elayne go through. Of course Elayne has to get naked first in front of that darkfriend guy who wants to rape and kill her!
@15 – Thanks for the really early reference to probably the most repugnant character in the WoT! lol
I love these Aiel chapters throughout the series. They are even better on re-reads after you have a functioning understanding of how Aiel society works because there is just SO MUCH packed into every interaction that makes me more appreciative of Jordan’s writing and the complexity of his world-building.
First of all, emergency brain surgery? Eek! Poor Emmett and poor Sylas! You must have been terrified. Thank goodness it turned out well.
The nudity thing; in a later book Eggy will reflect that there was a time all AS rituals were performed in the nude to be sure no man somehow intruded. Possibly the Aiel once had similar concerns.
It’s possible that the Wise Ones are being harsh with Aviendha because she resisted doing her plain duty for so long. This seems to be a recurring theme with Maidens. Aiel women have a lot of choices, roof mistress is a prestigious role and all the crafts are open to them. All little girls play with the idea of becoming Maidens but only a few go through with it, reasonably those few would be extremely committed to the life.
@15 Austin
What I thought was even weirder then the naked aspect of that sequence, was the fact that after it has been well established that Andor is very against even the appearance of foreign influence in their politics, Elayne let’s a wise one order her about during a critical time in trying to establish her right to be queen. I always thought that was very strange and out of place.
I think it’s more a problem of letting MEN interfere with the female succession. And of course the adoption ceremony has nothing to do with politics and is very important to Elayne emotionally? She wants this bond with Aviendha badly.
@19 – I get what you are saying but I see what creb is getting at. Just imagine the political fallout of a president/prime minister, etc in a meeting with their senate or cabinet being interrupted by a bunch of foreigners who proceed to tell that world leader to strip naked and come with them. And then that leader actually does it! Regardless of it being a personal matter I can see how many would view that as being subservient to outside interests as well as calling into question that leader’s mental state, judgment, and leadership abilities. Bringing it back to the WoT specifically, Elayne was in the midst of an extremely touchy succession/civil war at the time so I am kind of shocked she had no negative fallout with her allies over that. At least not that I recall.
@20
Thanks, that’s exactly what I was getting at. Sure the reader gets what’s happening, but I expected the Andorans to be aghast.
And Aiel don’t have a good rep in Randland…. That could work one of two ways; Elayne could be seen as being influenced by the Aiel savages OR her connection could be sold as a way for Elayne to control the Aiel.
It seems there’s still confusion on which chapters should be read together. It’s chapters 25 and 26 that belong together, not 24 and 25 as Sylas says in the beginning of the post…
I’m very glad Sylas is back!
That said, he has given something away inadvertently:
The term “chora tree” is never used before the Wayback chapters 25 and 26, not even once. He has definitely read ahead at the very least that far. Which I can’t really judge him for, as these chapters are extra hard to stop reading even by RJ standards. But it does kind of interfere with the idea that he’s giving unspoiled reactions to the chapters in question, if he’s using info from future chapters in his analysis. For example, would he really have said “There is still a lot of mystery to the Aiel, but it’s become clear that they have an important connection to events that seems to reach back to who they were before the Breaking…” if he hadn’t already read those chapters?
Anyway. MODS, as others have said, we had suggested Sylas read chapters 25 and 26 together, not 24 and 25 as he states at the top of his post. At the end of his post, he said that 23 and 24 should have been read together – while true, that’s not what happened, for understandable reasons. Lots to unpack here in 23, and lots in 24 too.
It’s about to get real up in here.
Welcome back, Sylas! Glad to read your insights once again- I haven’t read this in a while, so I really enjoy the recap at the beginning. I may pull this book out, however, since I do love the parts with Egwene learning from the Wise Ones!
The nudity thing is… well, I think the ISAM summary nailed it:
“Nadere: You must enter the sister ceremony by getting fully naked. That is the Aiel way. It is a sacred, ancient tradition.
Elayne: The Aiel way seems a lot like the Aes Sedai way, and the Ebou Dar way, and the Sea Folk way.”
The handwaves get a lot less convincing as they accumulate into the infinite stack of turtles.
@@@@@ 27 – Except the handwave can be applied across the board as “this is something female channelers do as part of a proving ceremony that they aren’t men who are destined to go crazy and kill a whole bunch of people.”
And for what it’s worth, do we really see that it is the Ebou Dar way? I don’t recall any particular insistence on nudity from them. They come from a culture of aggressive women, and live in a hot climate, so they wear less clothing/more revealing clothing that might be expected, but that isn’t at all the same.
Among the Sea-folk men and women alike go topless. In Shienar and among the Aiel communal mixed bathing is the rule. Standards of modesty vary tremendously from culture to culture. The Cairhienin seem to be very uptight, judging by Moiraine. The Andorians customs seem similar to ours. Women of the coastal kingdoms flaunt their femininity in clinging gowns and/or low cut dresses. But in this world femininity is power. Women consider themselves superior to men and most men accede to that pov.
Among the Sea-folk men and women alike go topless. In Shienar and among the Aiel communal mixed bathing is the rule. Standards of modesty vary tremendously from culture to culture. The Cairhienin seem to be very uptight, judging by Moiraine. The Andorians customs seem similar to ours. Women of the coastal kingdoms flaunt their femininity in clinging gowns and/or low cut dresses. But in this world femininity is power. Women consider themselves superior to men and most men accede to that pov.
Glad to have you back!
With the nudity being required to prove they are women. This makes sense in our world. But you’re all forgetting there is one very simple in world way to prove it. Instead of baring your breasts, embrace saidar. Done. This wouldn’t work specifically for the wise one apprentuce ceremony but would for all aes sedai rituals.
Although giving that a bit more thought. The early times after the breaking were not the most peaceful even amongst aes sedai, so everyone holding saidar could lead to.. complications. So maybe thats why.
@24 I was just going to log in and say pretty much the same thing. The fact that Sylas used the term “Chora tree” clearly shows he has read ahead or been (slightly) spoiled in some way. Ditto for the way Sylas phrased the question about the Aeil having a purpose going back the breaking.
Also, the continued disparagement of the “military” type training being prevalent in various organizations may be a generational thing. The White Tower training and life style is more based on late middle-age/Renaissance Convent structure and orders in the Catholic church and various monasteries, which future military organizations no doubt borrowed from to some degree.
I think we get confirmation here that Dreamers, unlike Min’s visions and Foretelling, is a less sure art and a foregone conclusion.
@24, @32: Sylas may be facing circumstances where he reads one week and writes his reaction the next week. Thus, the next chapter or two are spoiled while he is writing his experience on the previous section. He probably tries to keep it separate but sometimes flubs…at least that’s my guess.
He could have also read ahead while his partner was sick and is now jotting it all down. *Shrugs*
RE: Chora
This is not the first time the OP has mentioned the Chora tree:
https://www.tor.com/2018/05/01/reading-the-wheel-of-time-in-caemlyn-you-can-be-a-new-man-in-robert-jordans-the-eye-of-the-world-part-11/
You can scroll through the comments to see what Sylas said about it back then. Sylas went by Kelsey back then, if you can’t find the comment.
The same comment also references that, yes, Sylas is reading a few chapters ahead before the posts go out. My assumption is they are written while reading, and edited later, so by the time the post goes out, and the editing happens, Sylas has read a few more chapters.
@32:
Two very good points, @gadget.
The influence goes the other direction, as you say. Jordan’s influence for the AS training was the more strict orders of nuns and monks in the middle ages, as you state. And those religious orders massively effected the way militaries function as communities (at least in the Western world).
And the Min comment deserves more attention—as you state, the fact that the future is in motion for Dreamers doesn’t mean it’s in motion for everyone. Both Min, and the ‘Finn see deterministic futures. The fact that Jordan used both styles of prophecy in his work isn’t a mistake—he’s making a statement. The Wheel can “riff”, as it were, and improvise certain things, allowing for individual free will at a certain level. But important keystone moments are fixed, and can’t be altered. These are what Min sees. And the ‘Finn.
It’s also possible that because what the Dreamers do is connected to T’a’R, that they see possibilities that will exist in nearby Portal Stone realities. We’re told that T’a’R connects to ALL of these realities, so that makes a great deal of sense. I would assume that you could actually meet someone from a Portal Stone reality while dreaming in T’a’R.
Oh, I hope Em is okay, and that must have been a really harrowing ordeal for both of you! Glad they’re on the mend!
You are getting into some of my favorite chapters :)
The nakedness in both the Aes Sedai and Aiel ceremonies does make sense to me in a kind of rebirth/humility kind of way. And at least RJ tends not to be tittilating about it.
Jordan’s obvious indulgence in various fetishes in his writing (forced nudity, spanking, dominance/submission dynamics…) while at the same time maintaining an almost prudish prose always seemed slightly comical to me. Thinking about it, that might even be the effect he aimed for…
Like Sylas, I love Lan/Nynaeve and wish we got more of them. But I do appreciate the little hints Jordan drops. Here, Moiraine has never asked Lan’s history with the Aiel. But a few chapters earlier, Nynaeve said “You will need many things for a trip into the Waste, Egwene. Lan will tell me what.” The implication (to me at least) is that Nynaeve did ask, probably during one of their conversations in Tear. She’s probably one of very few people who sees Lan as more than a weapon or a political tool or the last relic of Malkier. She sees him and treats him as a person, even when he doesn’t want it, lol.
The Aiel and their customs are one of the more interesting aspects of worldbuilding and it’s a nice change of pace for the books, especially before we learn about the Seanchan in detail.
@34
LOL. I completely forgot about that earlier conversation from a year and a half ago about “chora,” obviously, even though I was the one to point it out then too! That word just sticks out like a sore thumb to me I guess. That whole sequence and experiencing it the first time 20 years ago really left an indelible imprint, even for the handful of references unique to that sequence.
@32, 35
Re dreamers and seers, I agree 100%. I think that parallel worlds are key to how Tel’aran’rhiod actually works. Everything is possible in some world or another; just some things are more likely than others, and that’s what the Dreamers see in their prophetic dreams. And not only do I think you can meet someone from alternate realities in T’a’R, but I think we actually see some of those beings in the last battle at Shayol Ghul, when all the realities and T’a’R are merging at the inflection point of the Age.
@@@@@ 38 – I like that idea re Lan & Nyn’s relationship.
I always had sort of assumed that Nynaeve has an unusual combination of her usual bravado (“Lan will tell me what I need to know”) with the kind of giddy certainty that the person you love knows everything (“of COURSE Lan would know what to bring into the Waste!”). It would be very fitting for Nynaeve’s character to that she views the person she’s chosen as a romantic interest to be an extension of her own surety of conviction. Sure, she can’t tell Egwene with a straight face that she knows anything about the Waste, since Egwene would know to call her on that bullshit, but she can still maintain superiority through controlling the access and flow of that knowledge. And the only person she can do that with is Lan.
In my opinion, too much of the recap is never enough!
Emergency brain surgery! Light burn me, that’s serious stuff.
Moderators, this post doesn’t appear in the series index, nor in the feed. You really want this one to show up in the feed to notify readers that the hiatus is over.
Two errors:
“Blight” → “Waste”
“Nyneave” → “Nynaeve”
And yeah, Sylas seems to be a little confused about the chapter numbers, but I expect that he will figure out which two chapters belong together when he gets around to them.
How unfortunate, then, that Moiraine isn’t there when Nynaeve gets dunked in the harbour of Ebou Dar. ;-)
Mods, I think there has been some technical issue with this post. It does not seem to be a part of the series. If you go to the Reading the Wheel of Time main page, it does not appear. I also do not see it on the sidebar.
Update: typos addressed, and the post should now appear in the index/feed (it will not show up in the sidebar on the front page, only because too many other series have been published since Tuesday morning, but you’ll see it if you click on the “all series” link and scroll down past the Gideon the Ninth entry). Thanks!
“And so it cannot be true consent, because it cannot be revoked once given.”
So I can’t consent to getting a tattoo? I can’t consent to having a doctor amputate my limb to save my life? I can’t consent to a haircut or trimming my nails? Those also can’t be revoked once gotten. Have I given consent to get on a plane if I decide I’m afraid of heights and want to get off while we’re in the air? Or off a boat when in the middle of the ocean?
C’mon Sylas… that’s “true” consent. Just because someone may regret it later doesn’t make it any less consensual at the time. Some times you just make bad decisions and have to live with the consequences.
@45 good points
@44, mods, did you also pass on the message to Sylas that he still has the wrong chapters paired together? See @6 for example.
Personally I don’t think either Warder or Aes Sedai really knows what they are getting into with the Warder bond. There always seem to be surprises.
Moiraine has no romantic interest in Lan but he’s hers, and now there’s a woman who means more to him than she does and it hurts more than she expected. On the other hand she genuinely cares for Lan. She would like him to be happy and she is deeply concerned about what will happen to him if/ when she dies. Her solution is to say the least problematic but Lan has an out. He can ask to be released from the bond. He never does and that’s a sort of consent isn’t it? He can’t admit it even to himself but when it comes down to it he wants a chance to live. He wants a chance to be with Nynaeve.
@46 – Yes, we let Sylas know. Thanks!
Okay but what the heck even are numbers?
Apologies for the confusion about what Chapters are being covered next week (aka tomorrow). I’ve now read all of Chapters 24-26 and my plan is to do all three, but only the parts that Mat experiences– so Chapter 24 and then the end of Chapter 26, when Rand finds him.
The following week I’ll go back and cover Rand’s side of things, and all his flashback adventures into the Aiel’s past. Y’all, I cannot with some of the stuff I just learned. Can’t wait to talk about it!
Wow, bold scheduling move by Sylas. So excited to see his take(s)on the coming chapters!
Awesome!
@@@@@ 45 – I think the problem here is not that “consent has to be revocable,” but rather that when only one party has the right to rethink a decision, it’s not longer a consensual relationship.
If the terms of being a Warder were equally binding on both the Aes Sedai and the Warder, that would be a different story. But take what we know of the Warder bond – it’s imposed on one party by the other, it can be used to physically/emotionally/spiritually compel the Warder, and only in that direction, and the bond can only be revoked in one direction, and that can be done without consulting said Warder.
Moreover, look at what happens to the respective parties when their bonded partner dies. The Aes Sedai basically experience nothing more than a heightened sense of normal grief. The Warders become literally suicidal.
Finally, the text makes it clear that to the extent Warders enter into the bond voluntarily, their Aes Sedai do not give them the ability to make independent decisions afterwards. Elyas makes it clear that he wanted out, and his Aes Sedai was unwilling to allow that. Moiraine treats Lan with a paternalistic sense of ownership which disgusts even her contemporaries. Gawyn strongly implies that Galad is in serious danger of what amounts to spiritual rape at the hands of a number of Aes Sedai while he is in training. There are enough stories of Aes Sedai or novices/Accepted acting in highly inappropriate ways towards potential Warders to make it clear this is a recurrent problem, if not commonplace. And to the extent that being a Warder means experiencing the emotions of your Aes Sedai, it means that any ideas of “consent” are complicated by the fact that Warders are essentially being subliminally gaslit; sure, Birgitte says she’s happy as Elayne’s Warder (and I think Elayne’s motives for bonding Birgitte are good, so no complaint there, saving someone’s life is usually ethically acceptable!), but we never get a reason why, and knowing what we do of the bond, it’s possible this is just bleed over from Elayne.
I get that the idea is to gender-flip traditional roles and positions of authority/subservience, and RJ does a great job with that here as in so many other places, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t acknowledge that the Warder bond is not a consensual relationship, that this is far more resembles an abusive relationship than anything else. If Warders were women and Aes Sedai men, the depiction would be a lot more problematic. Indeed, when there starts to be more equality in these relationships in later books, the fandom went nuts about how awful it was.
“Life is uncertainty and struggle, choice and change.” Thank you for the reminder that the world is not entirely locked into destiny and prophecy, for most of you or most of us. (Also, that line would sum up my ecology lessons in college with the addition of “chance.”)
People can’t enter Ogier stedding via T’a’R, eh? RJ said that’s also true of the Blight. How frustrating for Dreamwalkers who want to easily learn more about those places. :-p
“Many people brush the World of Dreams in their sleep. Because they only brush against it, they wake with aches or pains where they should have broken bones or mortal hurts.” So that’s why we sometimes wake up with inexplicable aches and pains. :-p I don’t recall dreaming about breaking my back last night, but it sure feels like I did.
@52:
Just wait until we get to Logain’s Asha’man bond.
@@@@@ 54 – Yes, that is what I was thinking of as well. Well, all of the Asha’man/Aes Sedai bonds
I think it’s been pretty clear from a number of the recaps that Sylas has at least already read the chapters being covered in the next week as he often makes a comment about what’s coming next, so that should be no surprise. I feel he has generally done a pretty good job of not letting whatever he may have read influence his commentary.
What I’m wondering is if he broke down and read New Spring. Moraine most definitely dunks Lan in a pond upon meeting him.
The pond incident that was expanded in New Spring is mentioned in TGH 22.
@55:
I call it Logain’s bond because he’s the one who invented it, and taught it to his own people. He didn’t teach it to any of Taim’s people. Small blessings, I guess, but it’s still far more icky than anything the Warder bond ever thought about being. He even refers to them as “Wives”.
No, Anthony, it was invented by a married Asha’man named Canler so he and his wife would always know how the other was doing. It is called the wife bond because it was only used by married Asha’man until the the attack by the AEs Sedai on the Black Tower. It’s use to control the captive sisters is indeed ethically questionable but since the alternative was mass murder…. The ‘extra bit’ forcing obedience is the really nasty part but it’s hard to see what else the Asha’man could have done short of murder or stilling. Logain apparently made sure his men didn’t take advantage. Some of the bonded pairs were having sex but it was the sisters idea to try to control the men.
Interestingly bonded Asha’man and AEs Sedai seem to get along very well in spite of the questionable way their relationship began. The two halves of the Power are complimentary after all.
There I go getting corrected twice in one week.
If I remember correctly, though, Logain adjusted the bond to make the women fall in love with him, or at least desire to have sex with him… even the lesbian sisters. It’s hardly consensual, unless I entirely misread the text.
The Asha’man learn a weave similar to the Aes Sedai Warder bond before Logain’s arrival and use it to connect to their wives, as many of the early ones showed up with wives. The One Asha’man with Perrin comments on it, noting that his wife hurt her ankle or some such and wondering how it happened. Even Logain half apologizes to the Red Sister when he bonds her, saying that “this is how we learned to do it,” then proceeding to give her a kiss. It is clear that he learned the weave from other Asha’man after his arrival, and altered it to compel obedience from the target. Lelaine proposed a similar modification to the Aes Sedai bond to Egwene when the Hall considered an alliance with the Black Tower. At least I think it is pretty likely that the he altered it and the original Asha’man did not have it, and Androl bonding Pevara seems to to bear this out, as it did not seem to be a compelled obedience type of bond.
I don’t recall Logain ever referring to his captured Aes Sedai as “Wives,” so you’ll have to help me there, though I believe the weave was originally referred to as the “wife bond” among the Asha’man. Other than succumbing to Gabrelle’s seduction, he does not abuse the bond in any way, iirc. It is certainly morally and ethically questionable for Logain and his men to bond the Aes Sedai in such a way, but they were well withing their rights morally to capture and imprison the Aes Sedai that had come with orders to gentle and hang every one of them.
You are mis-remembering/misreading. This is not in the books. As I said above, Gabrelle opts to seduce Logain to try and control/find out his secrets, and it takes her four days to convince him to sleep with her, but it was consensual.
As I recall Gabrelle finds having sex with a man she can’t control a total turn on but that seems to be her personal reaction, not anything to do with the bond.
@61, 62,
This must be something that gave me the ickies, and I chose not to examine it too hard moving forward.